Welcome back to Tech Talk, where we discuss thermal imaging cameras, the science, the technology, the engineering behind them, how we design and produce them here at Sierra-Olympia Technologies. And this series gives you a way to learn more about the details of thermal imaging. I’m Stan Voynick, Chief Technology Officer, and today I’m going to be talking about mid wave and long wave thermal cameras.
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The Simple MWIR and LWIR Science
What are the differences between them where they’re used? Some of the considerations in choosing which one to use for a particular thermal imaging application. Let’s get right into the science. Long-wave, mid-wave, what does that mean? The atmosphere that we live and work in absorbs certain parts of the infrared spectrum, and it has certain windows where it doesn’t absorb. The two windows that we work in are the mid wave from 3 to 5 microns and the long wave from 8 to 12 microns. Between those in the 5 to 8 Micron region, the atmosphere absorbs almost completely infrared radiation, mostly because of the water vapor absorption spectrum. But on either side of that water vapor absorption band, we’ve got the mid wave and the 3 to 5 micron and the long wave and the 8 to 12 micron. So that’s really what has driven the development of these two infrared imaging technologies.
Midwave Coolers
In the case of midway sensors, the materials that are used here typically require cooling off into really cold temperatures. Cryogenic temperatures. In the old days, we used to have these things called dewars that we would pour liquid nitrogen into, which would cool the sensors to 77 Kelvin. Over time, the industry transitioned to the use of coolers. This is a cooler that actually has the same elements as a refrigerator in your kitchen. It has a working fluid inside, compresses that fluid, takes the heat out of it, moves the fluid over to near the detector, and then lets the fluid expand so that it takes the heat out of the detector and cools it.
Some of these coolers can go as cold as those old liquid nitrogen systems we used, 77 Kelvin. The more modern coolers that we use, similar cooler to this is inside this camera (figure 1) operate at higher temperatures, 150 Kelvin. That’s still very cold, but these coolers don’t have to work as hard as the old 77 Kelvin coolers, and so they typically have longer lives.
Given the size, the complexity, the moving parts, then why would you even consider using a mid wave system? Well, mid wave systems have the characteristic that they tend to be more sensitive, partly because they use that quantum characteristic of the detector, partly because since the detector is cooled, that also lowers noise in the system. Mid wave sensors can be exquisitely sensitive. By sensitive, I mean that they are good at detecting very small amounts of infrared radiation. This translates to an ability to see very small temperature differences in a scene for trying to distinguish something that is just a little bit warmer or a little bit cooler than something else in the scene. A sensitive detector, a mid-wave detector for example, would do a good job of bringing out that contrast in the scene.
Long-wave Sensors
Many mid wave sensors work on quantum principles, where the photons coming in knock off electrons and the quantum action that happens there needs the cold temperature in order for it to work correctly. In the case of long wave sensors, the ones that we sell here at Sierra-Olympia are microbolometers. In this case, the infrared energy comes in, simply warms up the detector, and then that change in temperature can be sensed by the electronic circuitry. This does not require the detector to be cooled. That’s why these can operate at room temperature. These can be packaged in something the size of a marshmallow and the includes the lens.
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Application in MWIR and LWIR
If you were to go out and search on MWIR and LWIR, mid-wave IR and long-wave IR, you might come up with results that say MWIR vs LWIR as if there’s a winner between the two. It’s not one or the other. Each of them has its application in its wave band depending on the application that you are trying to fulfill.
You might have considerations where sensitivity is of the highest importance; in that case an MWIR system might be well-suited. You might have applications where size and weight is of the most importance, and a small, compact LWIR system might be the right one for that application.
New features and capabilities being introduced in MWIR and LWIR systems are enabling new applications all the time. Contact us to talk about your application and we’ll help guide you through the process of deciding which camera is the best one for you. Visit our website and our MWIR and LWIR product pages to see all our product line.
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hap
Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists?
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on: September 05, , 05:48:22 am »
Hi. Just a open discussion here.
Cooled MWIR cameras are known for their outstanding performance comparing to uncooled LWIR cameras in the same era. But due to their price, it's usually not pratical to get a new or modern one, if you are paying it yourself (not your company). Some older ones are affordable, but they are so rare comparing to uncooled cameras.
However after a longtime wait and watch, I just have a new question: Even if you're lucky enough to get a working one with reasonable price, and you don't care about the size, would the old cooled camera performance really beat modern uncooled cameras? By how much?
Welcome to discuss.
nikitasius
Re: Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists?
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Reply #1 on: September 05, , 08:49:48 am »
Just share my 2 cents and
SWIR pricecheck 3y ago.
If MWIR have same usage "popularity" (i see only "contact us" for the pricing..), i'm afraid it could be same, but, hope i'm wrong.
There are idlers that want to have money without working and fools that are ready to work without becoming rich.
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Wildseyed
Re: Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists?
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Reply #2 on: September 05, , 04:24:04 pm »
When it comes to vintage cooled mid-wave vs new tech uncooled long-wave thermal cameras, the key advantage of the cooled camera is sensitivity. In all other areas, the newer camera will out preform.
Let's compare an Indigo Merlin ($1,899.00) built in ~ versus a moderately priced FLIR A700 ($4,454.00), versus INFIRAY P2 Pro ($270.00)
1. Sensitivity: Merlin NETD 10-20mK, A700 NETD 30-50mK, P2 Pro <50mK.
2. Resolution and frame rate: Merlin 320 x 240@60Hz, A700 640 x 480@30Hz (Spec says 60Hz, but this is not possible to achieve because the A700 lack Jumbo Packet support), P2 Pro 256 x 192@25Hz.
3. Interfacing: Merlin requires a separate Pleora LVDS to Ethernet interface (iPort?). A700 Streaming uses Genicam/GigE Vision over ethernet. A700 Smart streams RTSP and ONVIF over ethernet, MODBUS, EthernetIP. P2 Pro features a proprietary image format streamed over USB-C. The camera can be made to appear as a USB Composite device, making it essentially a web cam.
4. Special Features: The Indigo sports analog video output, so you can connect it to composite analog video displays. It also has a detachable control pendant for navigating menus to enable features like overlays. There is also an RS-232 serial port. The FLIR A700 can have several features active (Streaming, Smart, EST, Color Visible camera, GPS, etc.) depending on the firmware it is running. This is only installable by FLIR at this time. P2 Pro comes with a detachable Macro lens.
Other tidbits:
Some sterling coolers from back in the day are still functioning. I have one. This is quite rare in newer FLIR cooled cameras, whcih tend to need servicing after 2 - 5 years.
Thermal cameras from China with decent NETD values are a relatively new thing. I'm not sure when it happened, but the quality is really on par these days. You can also get broad band cameras from some vendors, which has many special applications.
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nikitasius
Re: Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists?
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Reply #3 on: September 05, , 07:29:02 pm »
Infiray P2 pro it's a LWIR camera.
There are idlers that want to have money without working and fools that are ready to work without becoming rich.
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Fraser
Re: Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists?
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Reply #4 on: September 05, , 09:44:09 pm »
This article may answer some of your questions…….
https://www.acalbfi.com/sites/default/files/-09/MWIR_or_LWIR.pdf
MWIR cameras remain quite a specialist product and usually cost more than uncooled Microbolometer based LWIR cameras (unless you find a used bargain). The MWIR spectrum does offer a different spectral view of a target but whether that is enough to justify the added cost comes down to the use scenario. Cooled MWIR cameras remain a firm favourite for long range thermal surveillance.
I own a few cooled MWIR cameras and they are things of beauty in terms of their engineering and low noise, but a modern Uncooled Microbolometer based LWIR camera would meet the general needs of most civilian and non specialist users these days. My cooled FLIR SC MWIR/SWIR science camera was originally purchased to image and measure targets through both toughened glass and visibly opaque ceramic plates. For that application there was no other option but to buy a very specialist MWIR camera with the optional extended SWIR coverage that was a special order. The cost ?….. around $150K plus taxes and duties for import to the UK. At that sort of cost, your need has be be justifiable. The SC is also capable of very high frame rates to image fast moving objects and this is another specialist realm not normally covered by common general use LWIR cameras.
Another feature of cooled MWIR cameras is the ability to use slower (smaller) optics due to greater sensitivity. From memory my SC has a stated thermal sensitivity of 18mK. Cooled thermal cameras normally produce very clean low noise images that do not require the advanced video processing and noise reduction that is essential for decent uncooled Microbolometer based imaging systems. With modern image processing the noise may be greatly reduced in the microbolometer based system but we do need to consider the purity of the result if using a thermal camera in a demanding science or industrial application. Sometimes an image can undergo too much processing and may not be as desirable in some use scenarios. Pretty pictures Vs highly accurate radiometric imaging. I always advise caution when reading manufacturers NETD specifications. That is a specification that can be somewhat misleading, especially when one manufacturer is trying to ‘out-spec’ their competition. You may also see a statement after the NETD stating that it is “post processing” which can be confusing.
I personally could not justify buying a cooled MWIR thermal camera, even a used one, for my present imaging needs. To be honest, even an inexpensive entry level 256 x 192 pixel LWIR dongle camera like the P2 Pro could meet my electronics repair needs. I am retired now so do not need the cutting edge technology anymore. Where I differ from the generic user is in my interest in the technology and my collecting of the equipment used for thermal imaging over the years. I absolutely love fine engineering and that is often to be found in older thermal cameras that cost a small fortune to buy new.
There is little doubt that a modern LWIR thermal imaging camera can produce the required results in most general applications, if of adequate resolution. Specialist applications sometimes require more specialist cameras as you would expect.
Fraser
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Fraser
Re: Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists?
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Reply #5 on: September 05, , 09:45:41 pm »
This thread may also be of interest. Buying a cooled thermal camera can come with risks……..
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/thermal-camera-purchasing-the-perils-of-buying-a-cooled-camera/msg/#msg
Fraser
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Fraser
Re: Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists?
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Reply #6 on: September 05, , 09:48:28 pm »
The FLIR SC purchase thread……
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/high-speed-thermal-imaging-cameras-when-60fps-is-just-not-enough-!/
« Last Edit: September 05, , 09:53:14 pm by Fraser »
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Vipitis
Re: Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists?
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Reply #7 on: September 06, , 01:12:32 am »
depends on your use case. For my intended use case which is filmmaking with human subjects, it's a vastly different look. The lower nosie does enable you to see more detail. But the whole world becomes slightly more reflective and less emissive.
Dual band cameras aren't available to consumers, but would be extreme interesting for actually producing 'color'.
And there is also the chance for higher resolutions. There are cooled cameras at x720 and more, while uncooled usually exists VGA or XGA on the high end. A single product at x exists but isn't affordable.
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hap
Re: Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists?
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Reply #8 on: September 06, , 05:29:56 am »
Thank you all! It's interesting to read them.
I was thinking about more extreme compares, for example, a 70mk Cooled vs 30mk Uncooled...
I've heard they are rated for different aperture, so no matter the numbers, cooled are always superior than uncooled?
Fraser
Re: Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists?
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Reply #9 on: September 06, , 03:05:33 pm »
There is a lot written about MWIR vs LWIR and NETD measurement on the internet.
This article is an interesting read…….
https://sierraolympia.com/what-is-netd-and-why-does-it-matter/
FLIR description of NETD measurement…….
https://www.flir.co.uk/support-center/instruments2/how-is-nedt-measured/
Comment from Movitherm……..
https://movitherm.com/knowledgebase/netd-thermal-camera/#:~:text=The%20expression%20stands%20for%20%E2%80%9CNoise,thermal%20radiation%20in%20the%20image.
Basically, there is opportunity for an OEM to make a Microbolometer NETD appear better than it would be in normal use and MWIR cameras with detectors cooled to -196C will normally outperform any microbolometer in terms of NETD in the same configuration. You pay a premium for that gain however ! This is why I stated that the purchase of a cooled MWIR needs to be justified. The additional capabilities of a MWIR camera may be completely wasted in some generic scenarios, whilst absolutely essential in others.
Where videography is concerned, there is the advantage of shutterless operation with a cooled camera but some microbolometer based cameras now offer shutterless operation. Note however that the microbolometer tends to suffer drift issues over time and the FFC is used to correct for drift and clean up the image. Without an FFC event a microbolometer can suffer a degraded flat field over quite a short period of time. Microbolometers used to have die temperature stabilisation employed in their use and that improved performance and what could be achieved with a given microbolometer die. The use, or not, of temperature stabilisation has become very much a decision made by the OEM these days. Whilst not essential, such stabilisation was advantageous when tuning a microbolometer based system for best performance. A Stirling cooled MWIR detector array is cooled to a steady -196C (77K) so is a temperature stabilised detector system.
It is no great surprise that the BBC used cooled MWIR long range thermal imaging cameras from Leonardo for their wildlife filming missions. The cooled camera gave them the low noise, highly sensitive, long range imagery that they needed, even when coupled to a continuously variable zoom lens. In less demanding situations the BBC used FLIR microbolometer based thermal imaging cameras that were more portable but less sensitive and without the zoom lens. It was a case of horses for courses. Both MWIR and LWIR have their advantages and it is in the more demanding tasks that the cooled MWIR tends to ‘shine’.
If there is one thing to take away from this whole thread, it is to be very wary of NETD figures in sales literature. Sometimes the whole story is not given and the camera you buy and use may have significantly poorer real world NETD than that shown for just the microbolometer and an F1.0 lens. If chasing the lowest possible image noise thermal imaging solution, you will end up having to buy a cooled detector thermal camera with all that such a purchase entails.
Fraser
« Last Edit: September 06, , 03:11:01 pm by Fraser »
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Fraser
Re: Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists?
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Reply #10 on: September 06, , 03:20:11 pm »
I forgot to mention something else about cooled detectors vs microbolometers…….
A microbolometer is basically an array of tiny thermistors that change their resistance as they receive thermal energy from the optical block of the camera. A cooled MWIR or LWIR detector array is a Photon collector and so very different to a Thermistor technology Microbolometer. The Wells in the detector collect photons from the optical block and these are counted by an ADC. The Photon Well detector is capable of far faster thermal response times than the variable resistance thermistors used in a microbolometer and the detector is effectively a Photon counter. Hence why high speed thermal cameras use cooled detectors and not the relatively slow response microbolometers.
Fraser
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Wildseyed
Re: Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists?
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Reply #11 on: September 06, , 05:39:42 pm »
Getting back to the question "Is it worth it? A new cooled camera will cost around $65K at the lower end versus used, which will cost around $4K, not including servicing the chiller. If that's needed, it might cost as much as the camera. I've never tried to refill one myself, but I suppose it's possible. It might make for an interesting video.
If you want to look through plastics as a hobby, then yes, it's worth it. If you just need temperature measurements, I'd go with a microbolo. Depending on the optics, there are some that can come closer in sensitivity to the cooled cameras. Look to AutomationTechnology IRS-NDT Series. < 30 mK (f/1.0, range 1).
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IR_Geek
Re: Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists?
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Reply #12 on: September 08, , 07:20:45 pm »
There is a lot written about MWIR vs LWIR and NETD measurement on the internet.
...
If there is one thing to take away from this whole thread, it is to be very wary of NETD figures in sales literature. Sometimes the whole story is not given and the camera you buy and use may have significantly poorer real world NETD than that shown for just the microbolometer and an F1.0 lens. If chasing the lowest possible image noise thermal imaging solution, you will end up having to buy a cooled detector thermal camera with all that such a purchase entails.
Fraser
Totally agree that is not MW vs. LW but application specific. If it's short range up close then it's hard to beat a modern uncooled LW. The longer range you need to see then more the trade space becomes dependent on the size/cost of the optic required till eventually the cooled cost may be the better choice.
It's unfortunate that NETD is still the metric of choice when comparing cameras. It only captures a portion of the sensitivity/uniformity capability of an IR camera. We no longer use D* (D-star) as a metric and I wish NETD would phase out to a more detailed 3D Noise values. Lots of spec sheets are misleading at best when they don't state the exact conditions of the measurement. Air temperature? Lens temp? scene temp? integration time? lens? when NUCed? how? what algorithms were on/off? Realistically though if a person is looking a 'normal' contrast scene then it doesn't matter. However, if a person is trying to utilize a camera outside of the normal then it's critical.
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Fraser
Re: Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists?
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Reply #13 on: September 11, , 01:04:10 pm »
Another AGEMA/FLIR Thermovision 550 MWIR camera found, and it is in the UK
After negotiating a price of £200 it is on its way to me. It has yet to be established whether it’s cooler is still working. We shall have to wait and see. If non working it is a valuable source of spares for my working THV 550
Buying such cameras is fraught with risk, as I have already highlighted in previous posts. You only buy a cooled camera if you are willing to accept that it may become a "door stop" at any time and, if not tested by the seller, may not be repairable when received. The unit I just purchased was for sale at almost £1K but after I explained to the seller that it needed to be seen working for that sort of money, he agreed that a lesser sum was justified. He did not have the required AGEMA power supply and was not able to power the camera. It is very much a calculated risk purchase, but that can be the only way to obtain such a cooled camera at affordable prices. For me, only the cooler is not repairable so it all comes down to hours run and any leakage of the Helium over the years. This camera is likely part of an industrial clear-out and if the power supply and battery packs became separated from the camera, it cannot easily be tested so ended up being disposed of. I have seen many occasions during my career when perfectly good, working, kit was disposed of just because it was 'old' or could not easily be tested. If such items find their way to Government Auctions or eBay, that is when a true bargain may be found.
Fraser
« Last Edit: September 11, , 01:28:26 pm by Fraser »
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hap
Re: Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists?
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Reply #14 on: September 13, , 01:33:12 pm »
I hope your camera is working, so we can see your review
Now here is one Flir U in auction: https://www.ebay.com/itm/?
But it's a bit suspicious, the seller is a newly registered account, and it says "Please note the delivery estimate is greater than 24 business days."
nikitasius
Re: Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists?
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Reply #15 on: September 13, , 04:18:15 pm »
but as is it looks cool
There are idlers that want to have money without working and fools that are ready to work without becoming rich.
Fraser
Re: Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists?
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Reply #16 on: September 13, , 04:55:59 pm »
The AGEMA THV550 has arrived and I quickly connected it to the required PSU and ……. It fired up fine with the normal sound of a rotary Stirling cooler cooling down to operating temperature. After 6 minutes the cooler dropped into its ‘maintain’ lower speed mode and the thermal image appeared. A quick test showed the camera to be fully functional.
The very first power on test did have a weird vertical offset on the viewfinder display and it was monochrome instead of colour. This situation remedied itself on the next power cycle. The RTC battery has expired and I suspect that this caused the issue. I will need to fit a new CR cell in the RTC module, but that is all
With a 6 minute cool-down (5 minutes on later tests) period, this cameras cooler appears to have a decent Helium Charge and low wear It may have been the recipient of one or more replacement coolers in its life and I appear to have got lucky with yet another Stirling Cooled camera.
It turns out that I was actually buying from an Auction House as their true identity appeared on the eBay transaction. Hence why they could not test the unit prior to listing it.
Apologies for the awful quality of the attached images but I only had my iPad to hand. The iPad does not do the cameras images justice and they are even better on a decent large screen. There is dirt in the EVF and that will be removed when I service the camera.
Fraser
« Last Edit: September 15, , 04:40:07 pm by Fraser »
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Logan
Re: Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists?
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Reply #17 on: September 15, , 04:32:26 pm »
I just read some old documents here: https://flir.custhelp.com/app/account/fl_download_manuals
And found this thing surprise me: Many old cooled MWIR cameras do NOT have continuous AGC, which means you have to press AGC button every time scene changes.
Such as Flir/Inframetrics PM190/290/390/550/195/295/395, SC/SC, etc.
But the Agema THV450/470 do have continuous AGC.
Be aware of this before buying.
« Last Edit: September 19, , 03:33:03 pm by Logan »
IR_Geek
Re: Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists?
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Reply #18 on: September 15, , 07:30:47 pm »
Generally speaking not having AGC is a good thing when it comes to radiometric measurements. For 'pretty' pictures AGC is fine but is horrible for calculations. Traditionally you would want both ... a nice picture for focus/alignment but also raw digital count values from the FPA. 8, 10, 12, or 14 digital bit. Even then you require to be in the detectors linear region which may not be the full digital bit depth.
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Logan
Re: Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists?
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Reply #19 on: September 16, , 05:39:02 am »
Generally speaking not having AGC is a good thing when it comes to radiometric measurements. For 'pretty' pictures AGC is fine but is horrible for calculations. Traditionally you would want both ... a nice picture for focus/alignment but also raw digital count values from the FPA. 8, 10, 12, or 14 digital bit. Even then you require to be in the detectors linear region which may not be the full digital bit depth.
Yeah I guessed that, they are all lab/science cameras, not supposed for field work.
hap
Re: Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists?
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Reply #20 on: September 20, , 05:33:09 am »
I just read some old documents here: https://flir.custhelp.com/app/account/fl_download_manuals
And found this thing surprise me: Many old cooled MWIR cameras do NOT have continuous AGC, which means you have to press AGC button every time scene changes.
Such as Flir/Inframetrics PM190/290/390/550/195/295/395, SC/SC, etc.
But the Agema THV450/470 do have continuous AGC.
Be aware of this before buying.
This is awful, I didn't know that before.
hap
Re: Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists?
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Reply #21 on: September 20, , 05:38:28 am »
Here's two more interesting listings:
Inframetrics MilCam: https://www.ebay.com/itm/?
Avio TVS-: https://www.ebay.com/itm/?
Both of them lack detailed manuals online, only crude infos are available.
Does anyone have some insight on them?
Fraser
Re: Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists?
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Reply #22 on: September 20, , 09:00:11 am »
I know the Milcam well. It is intended for surveillance applications and is built in a military style case format of milled aluminium. The unit offers little in the way of features due to its intended use. The user can adjust brightness and contrast with the option to select white hot or black hot imaging. Flat field/dead pixel correction is done with the lens cap and pressing a button. All pretty basic as a field operative does not want to be messing with lots of buttons or menus. The battery used by the camera is a common camcorder type and, if memory serves, it is a Sony NP series Ni-Mh battery, possibly NP77.
The flaw in using a Stirling mechanically cooled camera in a surveillance application is its noise signature. The cooler is noisy when first switched on and sound travels. I personally would not want to use the Milcam in a covert deployment as the cooler might give away my presence and location. The noise of the cooler could be muffled by wrapping the camera in wadding or material. Still not ideal though.
I am aware of the AVIO cameras existence but have no personal experience with it. Avio is good kit but not well known outside ASIA. I own several of their microbolometer based cameras and are well made. I hold no details of specifications etc. it the. Way back machine on the AVIO web page may reveal more information.
Fraser
« Last Edit: September 20, , 02:21:18 pm by Fraser »
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Fraser
Re: Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists?
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Reply #23 on: September 20, , 11:23:23 am »
Avio web site still has information on the TVS-…
https://www.infrared.avio.co.jp/en/products/ir-thermo/lineup/tvs-/index.html
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IR_Geek
Re: Is it worth to get an old cooled MWIR camera for hobbyists?
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Reply #24 on: September 21, , 12:32:27 am »
Yeah I guessed that, they are all lab/science cameras, not supposed for field work.
Bulk of the use I did was field work ... science is way more interesting in the field